Hellish Ideas About God
IS the implication that God tortures people with eternal punishment in the torture chambers of the fires of hell destructive to the character of a loving and merciful Father?
Would some of the believers who believe that hell is the most grotesque epitome of punishment and suffering that could ever be invented, yet believe that people God created out of love will spend eternity in such a place that He has sanctioned...answer some questions for me.
1. Is God’s character of love (God is love) maligned?
2. Does the everlasting mercy of God run out?
3. Does the devil win out over Jesus in that he ends up with the vast majority of the people that God created for Himself, with him?
4. Does it exalt the devil and make Jesus Christ a failure?
5. Does it contradict the teaching of scripture?
6. Does it contradict teachings of early church fathers?
Thanks in advance for your input.
Part1.
ReplyDeleteCan I answer your questions?
1.) No God`s character is not maligned by doctrine of hell. If it was then Christ would not have warned about horrors of hell. It is the false love that we hear preached by likes of Rob Bell and the emergent church that maligns the character of God. God is not just a God of love but one of justice.
2.) At first I answered this question with no but then the Holy Spirit corrected me by bringing some things to my remembrance as He said he would do in Scripture. Yes His mercy does run out. He said my spirit shall not always strive with man. He said there is one sin He will never forgive.
3.) No the devil does not win. Read the last book of Bible and you will find out who wins. Verse 3 of chapter 22 says there will be no more curse. Why? Because when the beast makes war with the Lamb, he and his false prophet and all those who received his mark are taken and cast into lake of fire.
God all down through history has always picked a remnant. If you had to determine whether God was winning by numbers then He was a loser all down through history.
4.) No it dosen`t exalt the devil and make Christ a failure. Satan knows his time is short and that his end is near so he is doing everything he can to deceive people into believing that a loving God wouldn`t send anyone to hell.
5.) No it doesn`t contradict the teachings of Scripture. I wont take time here now to mention all Scriptures that deal with the wrath and judgment of God.
Part2.
ReplyDelete6.) No it does not contradict the teaching of early church fathers.
I`ll just give a few examples. many more can be given.
From Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)
Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John, and succeeded the Apostle Peter as the Bishop of Antioch. He wrote a number of important letters to believers in churches in the area:
Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)
From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)
This work was written by an Early Church Father (unknown author) and is dated very early in the history of Christianity. It describes the death of Polycarp, a disciple of the Apostle John, and also describes early teachings of the church:
Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)
From Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)
Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John, and succeeded the Apostle Peter as the Bishop of Antioch. He wrote a number of important letters to believers in churches in the area:
Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)
From Clement of Rome (150AD)
Clement was Bishop of Rome from 88 to 98AD, and his teaching reflects the early traditions of the Church. “Second Clement” reportedly a recorded sermon, and Clement discusses the nature of Hell:
If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (“Second Clement” 5:5)
But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’ (“Second Clement” 17:7)
Hubert,
DeletePart One.
Here is a quick historical survey of the EARLY CHURCH regarding their beliefs about HELL:
THE FIRST 500 YEARS: In the first five centuries there were six known theological schools. Four of them taught that all men would EVENTUALLY be rescued from Hell: these being the theological schools at Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea and Edessa/Nisbis. One school, Ephesus, taught Annihilationism (that sinners are totally incinerated into nothingness in Hell). Only one theological school, Rome/Carthage taught eternal punishment. Source: The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Universalism Entry, p. 96, Baker Book House.
1ST CENTURY: PAUL. It is interesting to note that Paul never used the word Hell in any of his writings, though he was considered the theologian of the New Testament. He spoke of God's post-mortem purging fire in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, but never of Hell per se. The Gospel of John, the disciple perhaps closest to Jesus' heart, never used the word Hell in his Gospel. It is also interesting to note that the Book of Acts never mentions the word Hell, except to speak of Jesus' liberation FROM it. Acts NEVER uses the word Hell to describe any part of the Christian message which established the Church. The following passages suggests Paul's seminal thinking on the eventual and ultimate salvation of all men: Romans 5:17,18; 10:9-17; 11:25-33; 14:11; 1 Cor. 3:11-15; 15:22-28; 1 Tim. 2:1-6; 4:10; Eph. 1:10; 4:1-10; Phil. 2:9-11; Col. 1:20, 23; Heb. 2:9.
2ND CENTURY: CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA. Clement was the first to speak of God's fire as a "wise fire" which purges the sinner unto salvation. "God's punishments are saving and disciplinary (in Hades) leading to conversions, and choosing rather the repentance than the death of the sinner, and especially since souls, although darkened by passions, when released from their bodies, are able to perceive more clearly because of their being no longer obstructed by the paltry flesh. We can set no limits to the agency of the Redeemer to redeem, to rescue, to discipline, is His work, and so will he continue to operate after this life." Clem. str. 5:14.90.4-91.2; see also 5.1.9.4; and hyp. (frg. In Stahlin, Clemens Alexandrians, 3:211).
3RD CENTURY: ORIGEN: "When the Son is said to be subject to the Father, the perfect restoration of the whole creation is signified, so also, when enemies are said to be subjected to the Son of God, the salvation of the conquered and the restoration of the lost is in that understood to consist."Origen, De Principiis, Book III, Chapter 5, Section 7, Anf, Vol. 4. Origen was the first Christian Systematic Theologian. A fundamental and essential element of his theology was the doctrine of the universal restoration of all fallen beings to their original holiness and union with God. Gods mercy and goodness are all-inclusive and ultimately irresistible. Hellfire is corrective and purgative, not punitive and eternal. This doctrine was called Apocatastasis,"the restitution of all things" per Acts 3:21. Origen was the greatest enemy of Gnosticism (per his Against Celsus) and is considered the greatest theologian of the early Eastern Church."There is hardly a major thinker who is not deeply indebted to Origen. From the middle of the Twentieth Century, focused scholarly symposia of the Greek and Latin Church have once again begun to study and critically expound the rich Origenian legacy." The Westminister Handbook of Patristic Theology, WJK
Part 2
Delete4TH CENTURY: GREGORY OF NYSSA: "What therefore is the scope of Paul’s argument in this place [1 Cor. 15:28]? That the nature of evil, at length, be wholly exterminated, and divine, immortal goodness embrace within itself every rational creature; so that of all who were made by God, not one shall be excluded from his Kingdom. All the viciousness, that like a corrupt matter is mingled in things, shall be dissolved and consumed in the furnace of purgatorial fire; and every thing that had its origin from God, shall be restored to its pristine state of purity." Tract, in Dictum Apostoli, Tunc etiam ipse Filius subjicietur, and c.p. 137, and seqq. Gregory was one of the three great Cappodadocean Fathers who protected the doctrine of the Trinity from the Arians at the Councils of Nicea and Constantinople.
5TH CENTURY: Theodore of Mopsuestia. "They who have chosen the good, shall, in the future world, be blessed and honored. But the wicked, who have committed evil the whole period of their lives, shall be punished till they learn, that, by continuing in sin, they only continue in misery. And when, by this means, they shall have been brought to fear God, and to regard Him with good-will, they shall obtain the enjoyment of His grace." Assemani Biblioth. Orient. Tom. iii. Par. i. p.323.
Church history is fairly clear that this view of Hell was not just the view of a few, but rather was the majority view of the Church.
Basil the Great (329-379) said that, "The MASS of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." De Ascetics.
Saint Jerome (347-420) said, "I know that MOST persons understand the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures." Homily on Jonah.
Lastly, even Augustine (354-430), who vehemently opposed Universalism, acknowledged, "There are VERY MANY in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments." Enchirdion cxii. (The Latin for "very many" is imo quam plurimi, which can be translated "majority").
I am not too much concerned about whether the early church fathers believed in hell or not. If they taught it or not ok if they didn`t it doesn't change the temperature in hell. I am more concerned about what Christ taught. Let these church fathers be liars but let God be true. If Jesus thought it good enough to mention about hell then that's good enough for me.
ReplyDeleteSome say Paul nerver mention about hell and maybe so. But here is what Paul did teach.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;(Rom.1:18)
Paul speaks about the wrath and judgment of God in Rom.2:5-6 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
In 1Cor.6:9-10 Paul speaks about those who will not enter kingdom of heaven.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Christ said same thing in his revelation to John (Rev. 21:8)
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Jesus said in Matt.5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Paul said in Eph.5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Does this sound like everyone will be saved? I don`t think so.
You quote something from 3rd century Origin. I wouldn`t put much weight in anything from Origin. While he may have been one of world`s foremost theologians he taught that Lord Jesus Christ was a created being who did not have eternal existence as God. If he is wrong on this he could be wrong on hell.
We find that Origin had bit of influence on translation of of RSV. If you will look, you can easily find parts of RSV that clearly deny the deity of Christ, while in other places it states that Christ is divine.